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Discussion Starter #1
This is a topic that is has MANY MANY threads, but none of which I have been able to find the answer that I need.

Here is my situation:

My 2006 686, 12:1 Piston, Stage 2 Cams, +1 Springs, Etc. hesitates when starting. ACTUALLY what happens is I turn the key I hear the starter relay whine/squeal, after a 1, 2 maybe 3 seconds the starter kicks over and then the engine will turn over and start. Now if I hook the battery up to a portable starter that has 1200 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps), she will turn right over.

Now here are the steps for remedy I have done:

1. Cam timing is lined up.
2. Chain and tensioner are tight.
3. Decompression pin is installed correctly and is functioning.
4. Starter Relay is replaced.
5. PC 925 Odyssey Battery purchased and installed (Brand New and Charged)
6. Grounds are secure.

I am wondering:

1. Is the compression such that it will always cause the rig difficult to turn over without 1200 CCA's?
2. If the starter was dead, would it still crank over and/or cause this issue?
3. What else could it be?
4. Who else has this issue with their big bore?
 

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Have you pulled the starter out and taken it apart? I've seen 2 starters act similar, one the brushes were bad, the other the seal on the drive gear shaft had failed, allowing oil into the starter motor.

Hope this helps!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks onebuilder!

Resolution:

I pulled the starter and tested it off the motor by attaching a positive lead to the terminal and grounding the body.

After determining that the starter worked and is strong, I pulled it apart to find that the brushes had created a lot of dust in the interior. So, I clean it up and reinstalled, it turned over better. Thanks for your help.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well I lied, I thought I had the problem resolved but NOPE. So after I took the starter apart I installed an odyssess 925 battery, which again helped but the motor still hesitates when initially starting.

I have been dealing with the "rough/hard start/tough to turnover/starter relay whines" issue for some time. I have read ALL of the forums, including grizzly and raptor forums to try and figure out how to remedy this issue.

So to give a breakdown of the issue again -


My setup is:

686 Big Bore, Hot Cam II, +1 Valve Springs, & all of the bolt ons.

I have taken a ton of steps to try and remedy the starting issue including:

1. Odysses 925 battery
2. New starter relay
3. Serviced starter motor & verified that it is still strong
4. Pulled the valve cover etc. off TWICE to verify correct cam gear timing
5. Verified the functionality and lubed up the decompression setup
6. Checked the ground connection (including sanding the connection point of contact)
7. Check and adjusted all of the valve lash to correct spacing

With all of this done my motor still as a hesitation when I turn the key. The odyssess battery made the largest difference, but it still doesn't turn over like it "should" accordiing to CAMSHAW.

Note that once the motor has made a few revolutions I can turn the key off and start the process over and the motor will turn freely. This tells me that the decompression pin is functioning. Also, if I pull my plug the motor will turn freely.

If anyone has any further suggestions, I am all ears.

I know this thread is old but my problem still persists so I thought I would give it a shot.
 

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I have the same issue with my 06 660. I just had a complete top end put in, which is all stock except oversize piston due to boring the cylinder. I have no whining but there is a 1-2 second delay after I turn the key before the starter begins to turn the engine. The guy who rebiult it thinks it is the starter but I am not convinced. I will try to post if I get it solved.
 

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When you were verifying the valve timing,were you using some pressure against the rubbing block on the chain tensioner side?
If not the valve timing could be off,causing the decompressioner not to work at the right point.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
By valve timing I am assuming you mean the cam gear timing, and yes I made sure that the timing chain was loaded. I am still trying to narrow this issue down. It seems as though this is a common issue when rebuilding the top end.
 

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Mine does the same, even stock. Installed a Red Top under the hood in addition to the factory battery to run the radio and lights with a SurePower isolator. No change.

After the 686, HC II cam, KW springs, studs, blah, blah... Same deal.

Runs great thought!!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
There has got to be a common thread that everyone is missing! Common people that are smarter than me, lets get this figueed out!

I was able to get rid of the squeal from the starter relay by added an additional wire from one of the starter bolts to the frame. But, I still have the delay when it turns over.
 

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There is one thing nobody has mentioned and that is Ign timing, with the stock cdi mine will spin over easy every time. It's when I put the aftermarket cdi in that it slows back down, I have tryed quite a few different brands and the one that seems to Work the best so far is made by AMR. And is there stage 3 for mod motors. My 2 cents.

Rhino Trail Phone. tapatalk
 

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I ran an extra ground cable from the motor to the ground and also at the battery and I ran a complete new starter power cable from the battery to the solenoid and from there to the starter. I also increased the length of the decomp pin by .015'', I have a 727, 12 to piston.........and I have no starter problems........
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Stuntman Mike, I actually did chat with trinity about the ignition timing and he did not think that it could be the ignition timing or cdi...his science behind that was if the motor turns freely without the plug in, then the cdi is healthy and it is most likely a compression issue.

I am not so sure though, because I have seen tons of the same issues all over the threads with both big bores and stock motors. After doing a ton of trial and error I think that may be the common thread! But I don't have a stock cdi to prove or disprove this on my motor!

I am going to run the new power lead to the starter and see if I can widdle this issue down more...update forthcoming! Keep it up guys we will nail this down sooner or later...any commentary from the pros is appreciated!
 

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Make the decomp pin longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Wiilykiller, I don't think the decompression pin is the issue here is why:

The motor struggles to turn on the first stroke only, after the initial turn occurs the motor turn freely due to the decompression components engaging allowing for an easier start. It is the initial turn that everyone has issues with. That is why I am trying to keep this thread going, because every other thread discussing this topic usually ends with someone saying "your decompression pin is not functioning/installed wrong/or needs replacement." I want to come up with the real issue as most of us with this problem have already eliminated the decompression pin as the issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yeah stuntman, I have had the same results when adding more CCAs, but the motor shouldn't need that much juice to turn over. I am after the real issue!
 

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The real issue is that when you add compresion,advanced timing,stronger valve sprimgs to a engine that was not designed to deal with all that extra rotational resistance you have to compensate for it. And adding more cranking amps has solved the problem for me. as for your asking for a profesional opinion I have been working on and racing Motor cycles and ATV'S for over 30 years, With those years of knowledge I think myself and the others that have posted solutions know what were talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Stuntmike, I am not saying you don't. And your right that there needs to be compensation in other areas for the motor work. I am looking to pin down how to compensate or resolve the issue. Pushing harder on that starter is only going to wear it down and break it at some point. If this was something that was universal to all built motors I would agree with your solution, but it's not, so there is something that a lot of people miss when putting their top end back together...that's what I am trying to figure out.

Your solution of a larger battery does work, I have personally put a PC 925 in mine and it helped. But I want to know what the actual cause is...my feeling is cdi but theories need to be put to the test and have repeatable results.

Thanks for the input!
 
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