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Discussion Starter #1
Ok guys need some help please.I have a 05 Rhino 660 and I started smelling gas while I was riding so stopped and started looking for leaks while it was running I found gas was was coming out where the hose connects to the elbow of the top right of the fuel pump clamp seemed to be loose so i pulled hose up on fitting and attached it with a zip tie (maybe to tight?) I went back to riding for just a short time noticing gas smell and leak gone so I started it up the next day pulled it out wash it let it idle to see if gas smell came back and lucky no smell cut it off and washed it then would not crank to pull back in shop tried till battery died which is charging now.Could me pulling that zip tie to hard around the hose caused this I'm hoping so i cut it off and waiting for battery to charge to find out but was trying to ease my mind in the meam time with some input from u guys.Thanks in advance
 

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Ok guys need some help please.I have a 05 Rhino 660 and I started smelling gas while I was riding so stopped and started looking for leaks while it was running I found gas was was coming out where the hose connects to the elbow of the top right of the fuel pump clamp seemed to be loose so i pulled hose up on fitting and attached it with a zip tie (maybe to tight?) I went back to riding for just a short time noticing gas smell and leak gone so I started it up the next day pulled it out wash it let it idle to see if gas smell came back and lucky no smell cut it off and washed it then would not crank to pull back in shop tried till battery died which is charging now.Could me pulling that zip tie to hard around the hose caused this I'm hoping so i cut it off and waiting for battery to charge to find out but was trying to ease my mind in the meam time with some input from u guys.Thanks in advance
My experience has been that zip ties do not make for a very good hose clamp, not clamping securely all the way around. The strap of the zip tie leaves the surface of the hose to go into the head of the zip tie. This leaves a small gap where the hose is not evenly clamped around the perimeter.

The clamps that seem to work the best for me are the flat metal strip ones that have small ears that are squeezed by a pair of pliers to open them up. When you let go of the pliers the band clamps securely all the way around due to the full overlap. It can be difficult to find this style clamp that is just the right size for the hose O.D. that you are working with.



The hose connections downstream of the pump tend to leak fuel out and make for the gasoline smell. The hose connections upstream of the pump (suction side) tend to leak air into the line. This can make for a loss of prime in the pump which will cause the symptom of no fuel delivery that you are seeing.
 

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Thank you after I fix hoses do I need to do anything to reprime the pump
I added a comment regarding air leaks possibly causing a loss of prime to my first post, just in case you missed it.

Problems with prime are very common with the 660's and 450's. The fuel pump is operated by vacuum pulses from the intake tract of the engine. This is very weak at cranking speed but speeds up once the engine is running. People have gotten around this by disconnecting the hose from the pump outlet (or Y fitting) and carefully pouring fuel into the carb float bowl through this hose. Way back then, I used a camping supply ketchup squeeze bottle with a tapered spout that was the right size for the hose. This is rather tedious but works, as the engine starts from the fuel in the carb and establishes prime to keep it running.

More convenient is to put a gasoline squeeze pump from a marine supplies store into the pump inlet hose down close to the fuel tank. You should be able to find a spot behind the seat backrest where you can put it and be able to access it without removing the seat. After a few squeezes of the bulb, it will stiffen up which signals that the intake line has been filled and the pump is primed. The squeeze bulb will push fuel through the check valves in the stock pump and you can actually (inconveniently) get yourself home if the regular pump fails.

Another fix is it install an electric pump, down low by the tank, to supply fuel. This can be done with a momentary switch on the dash to supply fuel to the stock pump before cranking the engine over. This has a safety advantage of not pumping fuel if you should have a roll-over event. However, others have installed their electric pumps to fun full time from an ignition hot power source. The stock fuel pump an be left in line or removed in this situation. The electric pump should be the very low pressure variety (1-1/2 psi or so) as the carb is designed to work with a gravity fed tank just above the engine as in a motorcycle. Too much pressure can overpower the float valve and flood the engine with fuel.

In all of these cases, the Y fitting between fuel pump and carb should be left intact. This acts as a crude very low pressure regulator. The 3rd leg of the Y should be aimed uphill and the fuel return line to the tank should be looped a few inches above the stock fuel pump location before turning downward to go to its port on the tank.
 

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In all of these cases, the Y fitting between fuel pump and carb should be left intact.
SteveS - are you sure about this statement? The electric pump that I purchased from Black Rhino instructs you to remove the return fuel line, but based on your statement I am wondering if this is causing an issue with mine because I have a sputtering issue at WOT. I have an inline regulator set at 1.5. Rhino cranks, idles, and runs at lower speeds with no issues, but once I put my foot into it or put it under load (try to climb a hill from a dead stop), it starts sputtering and losing power. I am just wondering if I am flooding the carb. I too have had a strong gas and exhaust smell, although I have not witnessed any leaks.
 

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In all of these cases, the Y fitting between fuel pump and carb should be left intact.
SteveS - are you sure about this statement? The electric pump that I purchased from Black Rhino instructs you to remove the return fuel line, but based on your statement I am wondering if this is causing an issue with mine because I have a sputtering issue at WOT. I have an inline regulator set at 1.5. Rhino cranks, idles, and runs at lower speeds with no issues, but once I put my foot into it or put it under load (try to climb a hill from a dead stop), it starts sputtering and losing power. I am just wondering if I am flooding the carb. I too have had a strong gas and exhaust smell, although I have not witnessed any leaks.
I am sure that the stock carb wants very low pressure. The carb was designed for what works out to be 1/4 to 1/2 PSI (the head pressure of a gravity fed tank). You state that you have a raw gasoline smell in the cab. If the float valve is overpowered by the fuel pressure, it will pass fuel into the float bowl in spite of the float level setting. The fuel will rise in the bowl to the level of an internal standpipe. Once it is there, the excess fuel will flow down the standpipe and out the drain hose at the bottom of the carb. It will then puddle up on the belly pan of the machine. Meanwhile, the fuel level is high in the float bowl which makes the fuel delivery end up being more rich than it is intended to be.

I would at least try it with reinstallation of the Y fitting. It is rather important to do the return hose routing as I have described it. The shop manual and parts manual diagrams are very misleading, in that the exploded view that they use has the return line pictured as if it were to be practically under the gas tank.
 

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In all of these cases, the Y fitting between fuel pump and carb should be left intact.
SteveS - are you sure about this statement? The electric pump that I purchased from Black Rhino instructs you to remove the return fuel line, but based on your statement I am wondering if this is causing an issue with mine because I have a sputtering issue at WOT. I have an inline regulator set at 1.5. Rhino cranks, idles, and runs at lower speeds with no issues, but once I put my foot into it or put it under load (try to climb a hill from a dead stop), it starts sputtering and losing power. I am just wondering if I am flooding the carb. I too have had a strong gas and exhaust smell, although I have not witnessed any leaks.
I am sure that the stock carb wants very low pressure. The carb was designed for what works out to be 1/4 to 1/2 PSI (the head pressure of a gravity fed tank). You state that you have a raw gasoline smell in the cab. If the float valve is overpowered by the fuel pressure, it will pass fuel into the float bowl in spite of the float level setting. The fuel will rise in the bowl to the level of an internal standpipe. Once it is there, the excess fuel will flow down the standpipe and out the drain hose at the bottom of the carb. It will then puddle up on the belly pan of the machine. Meanwhile, the fuel level is high in the float bowl which makes the fuel delivery end up being more rich than it is intended to be.

I would at least try it with reinstallation of the Y fitting. It is rather important to do the return hose routing as I have described it. The shop manual and parts manual diagrams are very misleading, in that the exploded view that they use has the return line pictured as if it were to be practically under the gas tank.
OK, I will give this a try. Luckily I left the original fuel pump with all tubing in place in case the electric pump were ever to fail, so I can easily reinstall the return line to see if that helps with my issue.

Thanks for the info - I will report back on what I find because I hate when others don't post the outcome of an issue they were having and then the same questions end up being asked again by someone else (I have been guilty of this myself).
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ok thanks for the info I am far from a mechanic but also can't afford one lol. So I had just a little time to play with the rhino today but what I did find is now when I try to crank it i have a clear bowl with a small filter in it with hoses hooked to it between the gas tank and fuel pump and I can see fuel pumping in to the bottom of the filter from the gas tank but not leaving out the top of the clear bowl.Any ideas try to open clear bowl and clean that filter ?
 

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Ok thanks for the info I am far from a mechanic but also can't afford one lol. So I had just a little time to play with the rhino today but what I did find is now when I try to crank it i have a clear bowl with a small filter in it with hoses hooked to it between the gas tank and fuel pump and I can see fuel pumping in to the bottom of the filter from the gas tank but not leaving out the top of the clear bowl.Any ideas try to open clear bowl and clean that filter ?
It is always a good idea to make sure that your fuel filter is clean. Always have a spare one on the machine.

From your description, I would venture to say that you have a leak somewhere in the intake hose, between fuel filter and pump. Into the filter housing is all the further that the pump can lift fuel. All fuel pumps are not very good at pumping air. If you have air leaking into the inlet line of the pump, it is much more air to pump out to create enough vacuum to actually lift the fuel all the way uphill to the pump itself. If the air leak is big enough, it will never be able to prime itself, especially at cranking speed. It could be the pump itself but you really cannot tell for sure until you have established prime and the engine is running. Inspect the hose connections everywhere along the inlet feed line. Tighten all of the hose clamps, etc.

You really need to manually establish prime, using one of the schemes that I mentioned earlier. A Ketchup bottle is really cheap and handy to have around in your shop. It may save you the cost of a worn out battery and/or starter motor. :) Find one with a pop on/off cap, most will come with them. You can actually store fuel in them that way, if kept in a safe location.

 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks guys I will try it.So what excact hose do I squezze the fuel in with the ketchup bottle
 

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Thanks guys I will try it.So what excact hose do I squezze the fuel in with the ketchup bottle
This is the 660 service manual diagram of the fuel delivery system. As I mentioned earlier, the routing of the hoses is piss poorly drawn and horribly confusing. Hose #4 feeds the carb. Hose #5 is the fuel return to tank line.

Note the green "This leg should point upward" annotation. Make this happen and reroute the return hose (#5) so that it goes up and over the top of the pump by a few inches, before you do this next step. You can see that any fuel from the pump wants to just go to the tank as easily (if not easier) than to the carb, if you go by their diagram. I suspect that most if not all Rhinos are plumbed as you see it in the diagram, as they come from the factory.



Disconnect the top end of the un-numbered vertically oriented hose between fuel pump and Y fitting (my understanding is that this is the connection that was leaking?). Push fuel into that hose and it will fill the carb float bowl. Put the hose back onto the fuel pump and the engine should start and run until it drains the float bowl. Meanwhile, the pump will be pumping many times faster and should establish prime before the float bowl goes dry.

Label your ketchup bottle with the word "GASOLINE" and do not keep it in the kitchen.... :)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Man now this makes since and yes that is the hose that was leaking.You are the man will try soon as I can and let everyone know
 

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I revamped my annotated service manual snip to (hopefully) better illustrate the fuel return line mod. It is graphically a bit better in showing the routing that I was talking about. I hope this helps.

 

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Discussion Starter #15
Ok after following your awesome directions I pumped gas in to the carb it fired up I put hoses back on and it idled for a couple minutes and died and would not start again so does that mean my fuel pump is bad? Dirty filter? Are leaking hoses? I looked over hoses they seemed to be good
 

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Ok after following your awesome directions I pumped gas in to the carb it fired up I put hoses back on and it idled for a couple minutes and died and would not start again so does that mean my fuel pump is bad? Dirty filter? Are leaking hoses? I looked over hoses they seemed to be good
Well that means that you are not getting fuel delivery, eh? Whether it is the pump or a plumbing problem is hard to say. Have you changed the fuel filter, tightened each and every hose clamp, carefully looking at each hose all the way around the perimeter to check for small cracks at the hose clamp area, check for cracks in any plastic fittings (the fuel tank pickup plastic fitting is notorious for cracking if it gets hit during a seat re-install), pull that fitting off of the tank and check the dip tube for cracks or looseness in its attachment. Also check the vacuum hose running from intake manifold to pump (#1 in the diagram above). Invest in a squeeze bulb pump and install it. This will push fuel up and through the fuel pump in spite of any air leaks downstream of it. Install it with clear fuel line and you will be able to see if gas is flowing or not. Having this squeeze pump will eliminate the lack of prime after the machine sits for a while that plagues all stock Rhinos.

If all of the above checks out then the next step would be a fuel pump rebuild kit or replacement fuel pump. For replacement, you have the choices of stock, a high flow Mikuni (stock pump is a Mikuni as well, the high flow requires a little bit of plumbing change), or a very low pressure electric pump.
 

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SteveS is dead on right here. I have dealt with the same problem. Before eventually finding an air leak I installed a 3psi electric fuel pump from NAPA beside the fuel tank wired to a momentary switch to have the ability to reprime without burning up a starter while searching for the real problem. I have tried while doing normal riding, with the 3psi pump. it does not overpower the float with the bypass hose still in place. It would not work this way if you removed the bypass hose, as it does the job of a pressure regulator.
 

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Change the fuel filter that you mentioned previously did not have fuel coming out of it and see if you still have the same issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Ok I changed fuel filter checked and tightend all hoses and then primed carb again and put hoses back on same thing fired right up but went dead in couple of minutes and this time I never seen fuel even go into the filter
 

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Ok I changed fuel filter checked and tightend all hoses and then primed carb again and put hoses back on same thing fired right up but went dead in couple of minutes and this time I never seen fuel even go into the filter
Apparently you did disturb something to make it change? Jiggling things around can make a small leak bigger. Did you check the dip tube and fittings for cracks and the other suggestions that I made? If so, you apparently want a new pump.
 
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