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hard starting problem

This is a discussion on hard starting problem within the Engine forums, part of the Technical category; ok im gonna apologize in advance for the lenrth of this tread but please bare with me i cant figure this out! I recently traded ...


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Old 11-09-2013, 07:28 AM
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hard starting problem

ok im gonna apologize in advance for the lenrth of this tread but please bare with me i cant figure this out! I recently traded 2 of my perfectly good running 4 whellers for a 2006 yamaha rhino 660 i know a lot of people who love these side by sides and thought I would too. It started up fine drove great, looked great, turned it off, signed the papers, cranked it back up loaded it on the trailer, drove 15 min to my sisters house unloaded it drove it around for an hour and then it stalls. I tried to crank it it sounded like the battery was dead, I charged the battery, and it still has a drag like the battery was dead. when i looked under the hood i noticed a car solenoid, and car battery, running series. when I tried to crank it i also smelled a burning smell. well the long and short of it i bought a new igniton switch to replace the push button start they had, a new factory solenoid to replace the car solenoid, and new battery, new starter, because the other was fried. but when I tried to crank it, it was still dragging and would not crank. but if you held the key on for about 3-5 sec, it would finally turn over, and crank, but the solenoid would get hot, and keep trying to crank the bike. So i was at my wits end and i pushed it back on the trailer, drove it 6 hrs back home to mississippi, and unloaded it in my garage. took the passenger side of the case off to see if the starter gear was bad and it looked fine. one way bearing was fine. I was lost so I took it to a very well known (in my city) atv repair shop, they have it for 1 and 1/2 months and only thing they could find was the neutral safety switch was bad, we tried another starter, solenoid, wires, checked valves, checked compression release,added grounds, nothing seemed to help it start easier. it seems to me that it is grounding out and not allowing the starter to get all power that it needs. what do yall think!? I would also like to personally thank who ever actually reads to the end of this, and anyone who has advise on this.
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:43 AM
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Take the battery negative cable connection going to the engine case apart, at the engine case connection. Take the cable off, clean the mating surfaces thoroughly and reassemble (using some dielectric grease on the mating surfaces. This connection can cause the cranking problem that you are describing.

Also inspect the electrical ground connection for the rest of the system electrics. It is a small black wire that is siamesed into the lug at the battery negative terminal, along with the heavy battery cable. it is a short pigtail which plugs into a bullet connector which comes out of the wire harness behind the battery. Look carefully for any signs of overheating, as a fault in the connection to the engine case tends to overload this small ground connection.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:49 AM
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Thanks for the advise man, I have seen a bunch of your post on this type of issue and was hoping you would chime in! However I have already done that when I said I put new grounds that is what I did. I not only checked the existing surfaces, and cleaned them I replaced the wires, and added new grounds from chasis to engine, from chasis to chasis, and from battery to chasis with no change. What about the diodes between the igniton and the battery? could this be a problem from a bad diode module?
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Old 11-09-2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
........What about the diodes between the igniton and the battery? could this be a problem from a bad diode module?
I do not think that it is a diode module, as they are there to prevent feeding back into another circuit that is also communicating to the device being controlled. However,it might be worth checking them. There are 2 diode modules involved with the starter relay (solenoid).

One diode module is feeding the positive side of the relay coil. A signal comes from the brake light circuit and another comes from the CDI module (passing along the neutral gear position signal) and the dual diode module prevents either of those signals from back-feeding into the other, but you must have at least one of these in order to start. You can check the diode module with a continutity tester or Ohmmeter: Take the dual diode module out of the circuit and put the ohmmeter leads across 2 of the terminals on the module; red test lead to the Black/Yellow stripe terminal (brake light on signal) and the black test lead to the Yellow/Blue stripe terminal, the meter should read close to 0 ohms (current will flow). Reverse the test leads on the same 2 terminals and the ohmmeter should read infinite ohms (open circuit, no current flows, digital meter reads OL). To test the other diode in that same module: Repeat the test; red test lead to the Blue/White stripe terminal (CDI ready signal) and the black test lead to the Yellow/Blue stripe terminal, the meter should read close to 0 ohms (current will flow). Reverse the test leads on the same 2 terminals and the ohmmeter should read infinite ohms (open circuit, no current flows, digital meter reads OL).

The other diode module, single diode, 2 pins, is connected to the negative side of the starter relay coil. The negative side of the coil is connected to ground by the ignition switch when you turn the key to 'start' via the Blue/Black stripe wire. Now comes the part that may be confusing, from looking at the wiring diagram: That Blue/Black stripe wire is also connected to a diode which is connected to the ground side of the overheat indicator light (used when you do not have a digi-dash), a temperature sense switch and the digi-dash module (if you have it). I believe the idea here is that they test the overheat indicator when you crank the engine with the key switch by passing the ground connection through the diode. You do not want the grounding of the far side of the diode when the engine actually overheats to start cranking the engine, so the diode blocks current flow in that direction. To test the diode use the same procedure as described before; red test lead to the White/Blue stripe terminal (temp overheat line) and the black test lead to the Blue/Black stripe terminal (grounded to start), the meter should read close to 0 ohms (current will flow). Reverse the test leads on the same 2 terminals and the ohmmeter should read infinite ohms (open circuit, no current flows, digital meter reads OL).

Whew, that was a over-wordy one! I hope that makes a modicum of sense. If you just test the diodes for function with the ohmmeter and they all work, then you do not need to know the why's for the diodes.

Just as an aside you might have a damaged portion of the wire harness grounding loop. That is why I suggested carefully inspecting the pigtail and it's connection into the harness. Damage in there can lead to strange and really hard to find problems. It tends to show up at the pigtail but can also happen internally within the harness with no obvious visual sign. You mentioned smelling smoke, do you know where? I don't envy you, it is really difficult to diagnose when things have been hacked up previously. Good luck!
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:34 AM
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Thanks very much for all this. I have actually found the problem it seems to be a ground/connection problem. I replaced the main wire from the + side of the battery and the end connections for the solenoid, grounds,and starter motor wire and it cranked right up. now I think there is something draining the battery while it is off. the battery was dead this morning, and it is a new battery. what could cause that?
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Old 11-11-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
Thanks very much for all this. I have actually found the problem it seems to be a ground/connection problem. I replaced the main wire from the + side of the battery and the end connections for the solenoid, grounds,and starter motor wire and it cranked right up. now I think there is something draining the battery while it is off. the battery was dead this morning, and it is a new battery. what could cause that?
The usual cause is some accessory connected to battery hot (Red and/or Red/Green stripe wires in the stock wiring) and not to ignition hot (power to these circuits is on only when the key is in the run or start positions, these are the Brown/Blue stripe wires that feed most of the fuses in the fuse block).

How long has the battery been hooked up before it was drained? The Red/Blue stripe wire is hot and always connected to the Digi-Dash, This can deplete the battery, but it should take a very long time. If you pull the 'Backup' fuse it will break that connection.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:49 PM
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Well it dont have a digital dash, but I thought something was draining the battery but I really cant pin point anything. But it is back to doing what it was doing before, when u try to crank it it has a 2-3 sec delay, that u can actually hear the starter trying to overcome the compression, then it turns over and starts the engine. If u let it idle for about 1 min and try to crank it again it dont do it. Is it possible that a aftermarket starter does not have the right amount of torque to turn the engine? So basicly ot only does this when the engine is cold, or has not been running for 30 min. Also I put a meter on the starter side of the solenoid while starting cold and the during the delay while trying to start the meter read 12 volts then dropped to 6 volts until the engine caught then it went to 14. what could cause this draw?
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by medic1 View Post
Well it dont have a digital dash, but I thought something was draining the battery but I really cant pin point anything. But it is back to doing what it was doing before, when u try to crank it it has a 2-3 sec delay, that u can actually hear the starter trying to overcome the compression, then it turns over and starts the engine. If u let it idle for about 1 min and try to crank it again it dont do it. Is it possible that a aftermarket starter does not have the right amount of torque to turn the engine? So basicly ot only does this when the engine is cold, or has not been running for 30 min. Also I put a meter on the starter side of the solenoid while starting cold and the during the delay while trying to start the meter read 12 volts then dropped to 6 volts until the engine caught then it went to 14. what could cause this draw?
Your 12 volt measurement is on the low side when the starter motor is not cranking. Check the voltage at the battery + terminal (as measured from the battery - terminal). 12 Volts from the battery with no load is saying that the battery is 1/2 discharged. A fully charged battery will read 12.7 Volts. For kicks, measure the voltage directly across the battery terminals while you are cranking, that will give you a clue as to the contribution of the wiring.

The voltage should droop a bit when the starter motor is drawing it's many amps of power. However, 6 Volts seems a lot lower than it ought to be. It could be a weak battery, have it load tested at a battery shop. A battery can show decent voltage with no load, but droop to much under a heavy load. This load test is looking for that failure mode.

Another thing that can cause that excessive droop is resistance in the circuit. This is usually due to a poor connection somewhere, on the + side and/or on the - side. If the battery checks out good, you will want to double check all of those connections. Bolts tight, mating surfaces clean, and also look for evidence of corrosion where the wire is crimped into the connecting lug.
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Old 12-05-2013, 08:58 AM
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Thanks will do.
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