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Drowned Rhino. Now it's smoking

This is a discussion on Drowned Rhino. Now it's smoking within the Engine forums, part of the Technical category; Ok, so we've built up the Rhino for mud riding, and it's been great so far, BUT....Saturday I was crawling it into a canal, and ...


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Old 02-27-2012, 11:29 AM
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Drowned Rhino. Now it's smoking

Ok, so we've built up the Rhino for mud riding, and it's been great so far, BUT....Saturday I was crawling it into a canal, and did a slow roll over onto it's side. We're talking laying on it's side in 4 feet of water. Needless to say it was drowned with the snorkels underwater. Long story short, we hauled it out, drained the air box and carp, pulled the plug and turned the motor over to pump out the water, got it going and ran fine the rest of the day. Yeaserday and today I changed all the fluids and filters repeatedly till the oil and dif fluid ran clean, running it for about 30 minutes between each change, then changed one more time for good measure. Problem is that on one of the oil changes my son put in 3 full quarts of oil, instead of 2 1/4, and the motor started bucking a little when letting off the gas, and now it's blowing oil smoke out the pipe. Could overfilling the oil cause too much pressure and blow some by the rings, or did we just clean enough sludge out and now getting blowzy, or is it time for new top end, rings or what? Stock motor 660.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:50 AM
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Thought I should add that it didn't smoke at all before, and didn't smoke after I drowned it until we overfilled the oil, and I haven't been inside the air box yet to see if the crankcase vent blew oil in there. Started raining cats and dogs before I got to that and Im headed out of town til Friday.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:24 PM
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Well first off, if there was water in the engine oil and you ran it, thats just asking for trouble. That could be the cause of your smoke. It could also possibly be from overfilling and oil being pushed into the airbox.

Never run your rhino (or anything really) with water in the engine oil. I also wouldnt recommend letting it run for 30 mins while flushing either, especially at first when there is still alot of water and grit inside the motor.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tdaggett View Post
Long story short, we hauled it out, drained the air box and carp, pulled the plug and turned the motor over to pump out the water, got it going and ran fine the rest of the day. Yeaserday and today I changed all the fluids and filters repeatedly till the oil and dif fluid ran clean, running it for about 30 minutes between each change, then changed one more time for good measure.

After reading these lines, I feel you might have trashed the engine. There is absolutely NO reason to run an engine that has had water in it.

You swamped it and then ran it the rest of the day on milked oil?
That's not good.

I've swamped engines before because I ride in deep water and mud. If an engine stalls out or somehow takes a drink; do not start it!

Stand/winch the bike upright (as much as you can on a Rhino) and drain the water out of the exhaust.

Pull the spark plug and use the starter to pump any water out of the cylinder and head.

Drain the oil and filter.

I'm not sure if the Rhino engine cases are the same as the Grizzly, but if they are, draining the engine oil from the drainplug will not drain all of the oil. The Grizzly has a sump under the wet clutch that holds a small pool of oil... and water/sand if you swamp it. You can lay a Grizzly ATV on its side to drain this sump but it may be more tricky with a Rhino. Still... you need to account for this sump in the engine! Pouring 2.5 quarts of fresh oil will just dillute the fresh oil with the funky stuff you're trying to drain.

Two or three oil changes won't "fix" a swamped engine [provided you haven't already run the bik with milked oil]. On a Grizzly 700/550, we have had to change the oil upwards of NINE TIMES before there was no milk.

Finally, when you are changing the oil, DO NOT START THE ENGINE to circulate the oil. There's just not a reason to start it. With the spark plug removed, crank the starter for a while and dump the oil. Repeat the process until the oil is clean.

You might say that is a lot of oil wasted but I promise you it's cheaper and easier to change the oil nine or ten times than to rebuild an engine. Running an engine with miled oil is a bad idea. The "milk" is suspended water, and water doesn't lubricate the way Yamaha engineers built that engine.

On Highlifter where many of the mudders like you and me hang out, it's common for people to swamp a bike doing a similar proceedure starting it and running it with milked oil... then 6-9 months later make a post about the best "big bore kit since I got it tore down."

I wish you good luck- maybe you'll get lucky. You'll know soon enough. I write this for other Yamaha brothers to take into consideration if/when they swamp their bikes.

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Old 02-27-2012, 01:41 PM
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If you overfill the oil....it has to get rid of the excess somewhere. Sure it will smoke.....drain the oil to the proper level and ride on. X2 what the other guys said about riding after taking a drink of water. I would have trailered the Rhino until all fluids were changed. Too much risk to run contaminated oil. Hopefully everything is good to go....Good Luck!
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:04 PM
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Didn't want to ride it till we could flush, but had to get it back to the trailer. I did cut open the oil filters on the first 2 changes and there wasn't any grit, just milky. I guess that's a positive. 4 oil changes now, and the oils looking pretty good. I'll probably change it a couple more times this weekend to be sure. Hoping the smoke is from blowby from the overfill. There was oil coming out of the crank case breather when I disconnected it. Ddnt get into the airbox yet as its sealed tight and I ran out of time. If it doesn't clear up after I get into the air box, and clean the carb, what's the best bet? Top end overhaul with a big bore, or get into the bottom end too?
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:56 AM
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OK. Thisw thread's been idle for a while, but I'll finally be home tonight and want to get working on this thing in the morning. I know I'm going to have to do several more oil changes to fully flush this thing. Question is..... Does it really matter what oil I use? I normally run the Royal purple 20w50 motorcycle oil, but can I use some super cheap oil for the flush? And do I really need to change the filter 6 or 7 more times or just keep flushing with cheap oil til it's clear then change the filter too. I've already changed the oil and filter 4 times and using good oil and filters is getting pricey. A couple more changes at $50 a pop, and I could have just replaced the top end.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:42 AM
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Use the cheapest dino oil you can find to flush it out - Using royal purple for this is a 100% waste of money. Cheap filter too - generic equivalent.

I've also heard that a mix of Diesel and oil can be used to 'flush out' more water. 50/50 oil/diesel, and put it in the engine and swish it around good (obviously, DON'T START IT!). Jack it up, shake it around for as long as you can, then drain and do it again. follow up with a few oil only flushes, and you're good. It worked for my buddy with his Grizzly that he swamped.

You can't really go too overboard with number of flushes.... any water left in the system will have a chance to rust and seize up bearings in your lower end.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:15 PM
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You could get a gallon or two of diesel fuel, take the oil cooler line off of the top of the motor , pour the diesel in 'til full , DO NOT START, let sit overnight, then drain, as water is still heavier than diesel and will settle to the bottom of the case. you'll still have the issue of getting the moisture out of the oil cooler.
You could remove the muffler and run it for short time , just in case oil settled into it and has yet to be burned out.
I hope ,for you it is something this simple, but usually when they get submerged and swallow water,it's time for a piston and rings, bearings should be ok
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:49 PM
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I am not sure who sells this stuff......It was called "Engine Flush". You ran this with the oil you add to flush. It has been a long time, but that stuff worked good for me.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:58 PM
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My 2 cents. We used to run snowmobiles on the water and from time to time one would get drowned. We would change all the fluids and take the sled out and beat on it run the **** out of the motor get that engine good and hot. That is the only way your going to get the moisture out of the engine completely is for it to steam off. I have even done this with off road vehicles I have had that have been hydro locked.
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:10 PM
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sounds like you lost the temper in your rings. rings have temper and fit the cylinder as it warms up, when there are hot and get water on them they cool quickly and loose there temper ,, you need new rings and maybe a oversize piston depending on piston / cyl clearance after you run the hone through it . when you take it apart out gloves on and twist the old top ring ,, if it twists a few times it has no temper ,, if it brakes in 1/2 a twist it did not loose it temper gl
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Old 03-03-2012, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
when there are hot and get water on them they cool quickly and loose there temper
That does seem like a possibility...I would also think the thermal shock might crack the sleeve...???

Quote:
Use the cheapest dino oil you can find to flush it out
Those Canadians know their oil... that is why we buy most of our oil from you guys...

Valvoline 10w-40 non-detergent...or whatever is even cheaper by the Gallon...go to Walmart and get the super-tech filter 7317... $3 each...they are actually very good filters believe it or not...better some costing $10...

Quote:
There was oil coming out of the crank case breather when I disconnected it.
There always was and always will be...

Quote:
Problem is that on one of the oil changes my son put in 3 full quarts of oil, instead of 2 1/4, and the motor started bucking a little when letting off the gas, and now it's blowing oil smoke out the pipe. Could overfilling the oil cause too much pressure and blow some by the rings,
I don't see how that would be possible...It would surely blow a lot more oil out the breather tube...however...oil pressure comes from the oil pump...which is a mechanical pump that pushes oil through the journals and oil lines based on a pump-capacity/rpm/oil-viscosity/oil-filter flow-rate product......any increased oil pressure (if that were possible) would have to come from thicker oil...and/or an oil filter with a lower flow-rate...it could not be the result of more oil in the sump...additionally...the by-pass valve should open at 17 psi on the oil filter...the system typically has around 10-12 psi at idle...peaks in the 30-40 psi range...so it doesn't take a whole lot of rpms before the oil filter is not filtering anything and the flow rate thru the oil filter is far less significant to oil pressure...

Now I suppose that the by-pass valve could have gotten stuck...but that would merely restrict oil flow to the head at higher rpms and cause extra wear on teh cam lobes/journals/rocker arm pads, valve stems...not do much else...the crank would still be in a heavy bath of oil due to having been over filled by a lot...

You could double the output of the oil pump it would result in much higher oil pressure...but the only result would be more oil flowing thru the lines/passages...it would blow anything or be able to get into the combustion chamber if the piston rings and valve seals are still good...

If it blows blue smoke it needs rings and/or valve seals...or possibly a new sleeve...

When you remove the top end you will be able to inspect the small end of the rod...and check for slop in the rod bearing...if both are good...just get a 102mm and sleeve and aftermarket piston...the piston will be much higher quality with vastly superior oiling to wrist pin/rod...you will also want to make sure the valve seats, valves, valves seals are all good and that the head did not crack or warp from the thermal shock...
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:14 AM
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I may be the minority here and lots of good advice but some of it is overkill. I agree you should not run a motor with milked oil but sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get it out of the woods. Fortunately the Yamaha single cylinders are pretty tough.

If it did not smoke when you got to the trailer but started smoking after it was overfilled, I would look for that to be the cause.
Dump the oil, fill it to the correct level and if not milky run the crud out of it. See if it clears the oil up. What are you going to hurt? If the top end is trashed, then it's done anyways.

For me I use the cheapest oil possible, run for about 7-10 minutes to get the heat up a little and drain until clean. I use a little Sea Foam the first 2-3 oil changes to help displace the water. I never install a new filter until the final oil change. I remove it each change and dump it.

Not to come off wrong but I have 3 bikes and 2 teenage boys that drive theirs like they are sponsored (not stolen because no one fixes those but I fix theirs). We ride a lot of deep water and it is not common for us to have to unmilk several bikes a ride. I usually carry 3 gallons of oil, gallon zip lock baggies (catch oil) and tools on the trail because of this.

The point is if you ask a question like this on a forum, you will get a range of replies from the people who use a torque wrench to install fender bolts to the guy who says I milked mine a rode it 600 miles out of the woods and never changed the oil. Do what you think is right, but the whole doom and gloom part if everything is not perfect is not always the case.

Take it from someone who's been there and have several of the shirts.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:13 PM
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Update in response to the above Post... I feel you with the teenagers, I use the phrase " He rides like DAD is paying the bills"
You are correct sir! While a lot of responses were all gloom and doom, you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. After thinking on it a while, I did pour Seafoam in with the oil, and lo and behold... the next oil change came up clear. As for it smoking, I took it in to the shop at my office (Airplane shop) and we used a borescope to look inside the cylinder and found that there was burnt oil all over the top of the piston, probably from rolling the Rhino over on its side and taking a while to get it uprighted. Anyway, sprayed an entire can of carb cleaner in through the plug hole and let it sit for a few minutes. Spun the motor over with the starter and blew lots of gunk out the plug hole. Put it back together, and viola! Smoked a little for about 30 seconds at start up and then clear as a bell. Sometimes the soloution to a problem is a little Redneck cheapskate ingenuity. I guess the Big Bore will have to wait.
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